Author Topic: Zilog & Z80 History  (Read 10439 times)

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Offline TraderTopic starter

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Zilog & Z80 History
« on: July 11, 2022, 04:01:01 am »
 
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Offline DiTBho

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Re: Zilog & Z80 History
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2022, 08:12:12 am »
Z80 is cool to be programmed, and used in some first-year university course  :D
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Offline DiTBho

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Re: Zilog & Z80 History
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2022, 09:37:03 am »
And Soviet z80 processors  :o :o :o
The opposite of courage is not cowardice, it is conformity. Even a dead fish can go with the flow
 
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Zilog & Z80 History
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2022, 12:02:03 pm »
The video says at 3:15 that i4004 was the first microprocessor, not exactly correct, it seems the first microprocessor was Ray Holt's MP944, designed before i4004, but MP944 was for the F-14 fighter jets, and therefore kept secret:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/fun-for-nerds/msg3990257/#msg3990257



Back to Z80, we used to have a Romanian Z80 before 1989, produced by Microelectronica:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMN80CPU

During the 80's I've designed a Z80 based computer compatible with both the CP/M OS and the ZX Spectrum home computer.



https://hackaday.io/project/1411-xor-hobby-a-vintage-z80-computer-prototype


Z80 was a great microprocessor for its time, I think the Z80 core (Z80 code compatibles) are still in production in some microcontrollers.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2022, 12:18:05 pm by RoGeorge »
 
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Offline chickenHeadKnob

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Re: Zilog & Z80 History
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2022, 02:35:48 pm »
When the Z80 came out Intel was not as dependent on microprocessors as they are now. They were more of an all-rounder, with dram and eproms and other stuff.
Year over year they were still making good profits, so no big panic, certainly not a night mare. Besides many players including Intel had more advanced microprocessors in the design pipeline. The general competition was  stronger back then.
 

Offline Sal Ammoniac

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Re: Zilog & Z80 History
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2022, 08:52:31 pm »
I have fond memories of the Z80. The company I worked for in the 80s used the Z80 and derivatives (such as the Z180 and Hitachi 64180) as an embedded processor for their products and I probably wrote more than 100,000 lines of Z80 assembler code.
Complexity is the number-one enemy of high-quality code.
 
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Offline brucehoult

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Re: Zilog & Z80 History
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2022, 01:06:21 am »
Nice video. And the 6502 one too.

I'm a bit concerned over the 8080 is not mentioned until the part where old ads are shown comparing the z80 to 8080. Did these guys do 8080 before they left, or it happened while they were already designing the z80?  It's not at all clear in this video.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Zilog & Z80 History
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2022, 01:27:24 am »
The 8080 was released in early '74 by Intel. The engineer that founded Zilog left Intel in late '74. I'll let you do the maths. ;)
 

Offline brucehoult

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Re: Zilog & Z80 History
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2022, 03:15:49 am »
The 8080 was released in early '74 by Intel. The engineer that founded Zilog left Intel in late '74. I'll let you do the maths. ;)

"it's not at all clear in this video"
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Zilog & Z80 History
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2022, 06:10:47 am »
IIRC, a few engineers from the team that designed the Intel 8080 left Intel to form Zilog, and launched the Z80.

- Z80 is backward compatible with i8080, can run 8080 binary code without any change.
- Z80 had some hardware improvements, reducing the total number of chips needed to build a computer.
- Z80 has different mnemonic names for its assembly language (for the same binary instruction codes).
- Z80 has more instructions than i8080
- Z80 was the precursor of 8086, 80186, 286, 386, 486, etc.

Offline DiTBho

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Re: Zilog & Z80 History
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2022, 06:14:35 am »
- Z80 was the precursor of 8086, 80186, 286, 386, 486, etc.

wtf?  :o :o :o
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Offline brucehoult

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Re: Zilog & Z80 History
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2022, 06:41:16 am »
- Z80 was the precursor of 8086, 80186, 286, 386, 486, etc.

wtf?  :o :o :o

"Four things obvious to anyone who knows anything about it, and one lie"
 
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Zilog & Z80 History
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2022, 07:02:07 am »
8085/8088 and 8086 were perceived as Intel's response to Z80.  IIRC 8088 was still 8bits and was heaving the same registers as 8080 plus some more, though I think it was not binary compatible with 8080 or Z80, yet the assembly source code was directly translatable (one to one) into 8088/8086 assembly, or at least that's how I remember.  Certainly not a lie.  Lying means to intentionally try to deceive.

If my info is not correct, would you mind telling how was it, please, or why do you think that's a lie?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2022, 07:06:46 am by RoGeorge »
 

Offline DiTBho

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Re: Zilog & Z80 History
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2022, 07:07:51 am »
When IBM announced the "Personal Computer" program, Intel x86 was chosen only because the Zilog Z80 was banned for being "financially problematic".

What a pity, with the { z80(8bit), z8000(16bit), z80000(32bit) } we would have had better computers nowadays.

z80000 includes a memory management unit that provides protected memory and virtual memory addressing with three methods of accessing memory:
  • compact mode, only access 16-bit addresses, equivalent to the Z8000's non-segmented mode. bits 31-16 of all virtual addresses
  • segmented mode, 32768 segments of 16-bit address, comprising memory from 0-2GB, and 128 segments of 24-bit address, comprising memory from 2GB-4GB); making a total of 32-bit address of accessible memory
  • linear mode, 32-bit address accessible memory

Isn't that better than x86-intel? isn't this already "Unix-style segment"?
For over 30 years intel have promoted nothing but confusion with its lousy definition of "Intel segment|O

- - - -

intel-x86 sucks, but evolved during years. It's now on multiprocessing, and both Intel and AMD now have problems with their prose causal-consistency descriptions of the then-current "x86-CC" documentation, which unfortunately turned out to be unsound, forbidding some behavior which actual processors exhibit.

I still remember the early revisions of their "Intel SDM" (2006) which gave an informal-prose model called ‘processor ordering’, which was .... "unsupported" by any example, basically because it doesn't work when you try to implement it, and it doesn't work because it is hard to give a precise interpretation of this description.

Doesn't this sound familiar with intel? when they do something they always do it either badly or too complicated or messed up

Indeed, Intel SDM rev-29 (2008), now they talked about weird memory barrier instructions, now included as "Reads cannot pass LFENCE and MFENCE instructions", but "Writes cannot pass SFENCE and MFENCE instructions”, but writes are now explicitly ordered, but stores are not reordered with other stores so writes by a single processor are observed in the same order by all processors, which unfortunately, it is still problematic, it doesn't tell how to interpret “causality” and says nothing about observations of two stores by those two processors
themselves.

In short, it was still so weak, ugly, complex and potentially catastrophic that you would have given a fsck to that crap. Again. Pretend nothing has happened, touch the kernel as little as possible, as long as it seems working, that's okay  |O

Then someone looked at SPARC. Oh, see, their Total Store Ordering TSO memory model actually works! Why don't we copy it? And Now they are talking about "x86-TSO", a memory model which suffers from neither problem, formalized in HOL4.

- - - - -

That's intel!

A mediocre company that has spat out a crappy disgusting architecture that has nevertheless been able to sell well; now it's POWER10/11 and RISC-V time, and since they are still with their x86-crap, I hope the company dies a painful but quick death so they won't ruin the future of computing as well like they did during 90s and 2000s.
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Offline DiTBho

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Re: Zilog & Z80 History
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2022, 07:31:02 am »
Olivetti M20 (1982), OS = PCOS (developed by Olivetti), CPU = Zilog Z8001 ---> business failure due to the lack of software (90%, for x86-PCs)
Olivetti M24 (1983), OS = Olivetti-MSDOS (developed by Microsoft, rebranded) + GW-BASIC (ROM), CPU = intel 8088/86 ---> business success

There was no opensource (and no GNU/Linux | BSD) at that time ... programs were binary only  :o :o :o
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Online David Hess

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Re: Zilog & Z80 History
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2022, 08:08:32 am »
IIRC 8088 was still 8bits and was heaving the same registers as 8080 plus some more, though I think it was not binary compatible with 8080 or Z80, yet the assembly source code was directly translatable (one to one) into 8088/8086 assembly, or at least that's how I remember.

The 8088 and 8086 have the same 16-bit ALU and 16-bit register widths so both are 16-bits despite the 8-bit external bus on the 8088.  Their instruction set had a lot of the same improvements, especially in orthogonality, that the Z80 had over the 8080.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2022, 08:50:33 pm by David Hess »
 

Offline chickenHeadKnob

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Re: Zilog & Z80 History
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2022, 08:26:50 am »
I have fond memories of the Z80. The company I worked for in the 80s used the Z80 and derivatives (such as the Z180 and Hitachi 64180) as an embedded processor for their products and I probably wrote more than 100,000 lines of Z80 assembler code.

The problem for both 64180 and z180 is that they came too late. I considered the 64180 for a design at one point. It looked good but by that time the NEC V25 was available   in the same market segment which was what I ended up choosing. The V25 had an 8088 compatible core and some peripherals and despite my initial doubt turned out to be very pleasant to program.
 

Offline DiTBho

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Re: Zilog & Z80 History
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2022, 09:40:07 am »
Thanks god, my Vt100 terminal has a z80 chip inside. Some vt100s(1), vt220s and successive units have a Intel 8080 or 8086/88 cpu, I feel lucky ;D

The Vt100 Computer terminal released in 1978 by DEC comes with an Intel 8080, the later VT102 uses an Intel 8085, and Vt180 model released in 1982 by DEC introduced a Z80-based(1) option board which turned the VT100 into a CP/M microcomputer, but the main board is still based on Intel 8080.

(1) some are Mostek MK3880N (Z80 compatible) based, some are Zilog Z80 based

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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Zilog & Z80 History
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2022, 06:02:44 pm »
It's interesting to note that Intel's CPUs were not particularly great compared to their competitors. Also, while not everyone will agree here, I consider the most interesting Intel CPUs to be the ones that were commercial failures. Go figure.

 

Online Benta

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Re: Zilog & Z80 History
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2022, 06:35:51 pm »
In the late 70s, Intel was teetering on the edge of bankrupcy. What saved their bacon was IBM's choice of the 8088 for the IBM PC.
The tech guys at IBM actually preferred the M68k from Motorola, but as Motorola was a computer manufacturer in those days (VersaDOS, UNIX, VersaModules, big racks, minicomputers etc.), selecting Intel was a nice choice. A small guy that could be kept under control and supported as necessary to supply the CPUs.
Boy, was that a miscalculation.
 

Offline bson

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Re: Zilog & Z80 History
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2022, 06:37:56 pm »
8085/8088 and 8086 were perceived as Intel's response to Z80.  IIRC 8088 was still 8bits and was heaving the same registers as 8080 plus some more, though I think it was not binary compatible with 8080 or Z80, yet the assembly source code was directly translatable (one to one) into 8088/8086 assembly, or at least that's how I remember.  Certainly not a lie.  Lying means to intentionally try to deceive.

If my info is not correct, would you mind telling how was it, please, or why do you think that's a lie?
What?  The 8088 was an 8086 with an 8-bit external data bus.  Both are 16-bit processors and both have the same 20-bit segmented memory model and will run exactly the same binaries. They have absolutely nothing in common with the Z80 or 8080.  The 8086 was released in 1978, designed as a general-purpose personal computer microprocessor.

The 8085 is an 8080 with a simplified pinout and some minor tweaks (like improved interrupt handling).
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Zilog & Z80 History
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2022, 06:51:24 pm »
Nothing in common with the 8080 is a bit of a stretch (give us your definition of that), but otherwise yeah, the 8088 was just a 8086 with a reduced external data bus AFAIK. Like the 68008 with its 8-bit external data bus. That would be cheaper to integrate.

Now while the 8088 was a commercial success, I don't think the 68008 ever was. That's also an interesting thing to ponder on.
I don't even know what kind of product the 68008 was used in except for the Sinclair QL. Probably a bunch of niche stuff I have never seen.
 

Offline woofy

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Re: Zilog & Z80 History
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2022, 07:01:59 pm »
It's interesting to note that Intel's CPUs were not particularly great compared to their competitors.
Something not lost on Intel judging by the effort they have put in trying to move away from x86 over the years.
i432, i960, i860 and biggest disaster of all, Itainium.
x86/amd64 has such a massive momentum its near unstoppable. At this stage only ARM and RISCV stand any real chance.

Offline bson

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Re: Zilog & Z80 History
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2022, 07:02:55 pm »
In the late 70s, Intel was teetering on the edge of bankrupcy. What saved their bacon was IBM's choice of the 8088 for the IBM PC.
The tech guys at IBM actually preferred the M68k from Motorola, but as Motorola was a computer manufacturer in those days (VersaDOS, UNIX, VersaModules, big racks, minicomputers etc.), selecting Intel was a nice choice. A small guy that could be kept under control and supported as necessary to supply the CPUs.
Boy, was that a miscalculation.
IBM started designing the PC in 1980.  The 68008 didn't come out until 1982, so it didn't exist and wasn't an option.  The 8088 was the only 16-bit processor available with an 8-bit external data bus.  The latter was important to keep board complexity down and fitting everything on a single mainboard.  The 68000 was also very new when IBM started designing the PC, while the 8086 series had been shipping for a number of years and could be sourced in volume.  I'm sure that was a factor.

The original 68000 wasn't that great either, but its size and need for support chips meant the resulting design would have been priced more along the line of Cromemcos which would have placed it completely beyond IBM's intended market.
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Zilog & Z80 History
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2022, 07:43:13 pm »
8085/8088 and 8086 were perceived as Intel's response to Z80.  IIRC 8088 was still 8bits and was heaving the same registers as 8080 plus some more, though I think it was not binary compatible with 8080 or Z80, yet the assembly source code was directly translatable (one to one) into 8088/8086 assembly, or at least that's how I remember.  Certainly not a lie.  Lying means to intentionally try to deceive.

If my info is not correct, would you mind telling how was it, please, or why do you think that's a lie?
What?  The 8088 was an 8086 with an 8-bit external data bus.  Both are 16-bit processors and both have the same 20-bit segmented memory model and will run exactly the same binaries. They have absolutely nothing in common with the Z80 or 8080.

Yes, in 8088 only the bus was 8bits, but the registers in 8086/8088 were a superset of the 8080 registers, and even if the ALU was 16 bits, it can still operate with 8 bits.  Sure, 8086 was having some extra features, including segmented addressing registers, prefetch and pipeline instruction decoding and so on.

I still think the 8080 architecture (and thus Z80, too) was the ancestor of 8086, and I still think 8086 was an augmented 8080 rather than being a totally new microprocessor.  8086 was a followup of 8080.

I won't argue any more about this, and nowadays such details are irrelevant anyways, though for the curious, just look at the registers, and it will be clear that 8086 is an enhanced 8080.  XLT86™, 8080 to 8086 Assembly Language Translator, USER'S GUIDE, Copyright © 1981, Digital Research, Inc.

See the similarities between 8080 and 8086:

Picture from:  http://www.eazynotes.com/pages/microprocessor/notes/block-diagram-of-intel-8086.html

Attached snapshot is from Quora page https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-8080-and-8086


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